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2015年7月6日星期一

诺奖得主经济学家斯蒂格利兹严厉批评欧元区过去五年强加给希腊错误的经济政策导致灾难性后果

斯蒂格利兹:欧盟和德国"有刑事责任",手上不干净。

Joseph Stiglitz to Greece's Creditors: Abandon Austerity Or Face Global Fallout
Nobel laureate tells TIME that the institutions and countries that have enforced cost-cutting on Greece "have criminal responsibility"

尤瑟福·斯蒂格利兹对希腊的债权人说:不放弃节支方案的话就要面对全球性经济恶化后果
诺比尔经济学奖得主告诉时代周刊,强制希腊裁减公共开支的国家和机构"负有刑事罪责"。

解码希腊危机:媒体歪曲的9件事 http://lihlii.blogspot.nl/2015/07/9.html

Joseph Stiglitz @stiglitzian 2015-06-29 14:29:57 UTC
Stiglitz: "The creditors should admit that the policies that they put forward over the last five years are flawed." http://ti.me/1GKSo7j

Joseph Stiglitz @stiglitzian 2015-06-29 14:31:13 UTC
What they asked for caused a deep depression w/ long-standing effects & I don't think there is any way that EU's &Germany's hands are clean.

Stranded @sergiez 2015-06-29 14:34:47 UTC
@stiglitzian Just please stop calling those criminals "Germany" please, Professor.

Beau Butler @oddynz 2015-06-29 14:37:16 UTC
@stiglitzian What about all the http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 no taxation, missing $billions/year, no land registry etc etc though?

Beau Butler @oddynz 2015-06-29 14:38:04 UTC
@stiglitzian ...doesn't sound like it's all the creditor's fault...?

George Birbilis @Zoomicon 2015-06-29 14:38:46 UTC
@stiglitzian now they're putting the right one #ELA. Greek politicians and their cunny equivalent measures and no will for reforms the issue

Alberto Castiglioni @alberto88ca 2015-06-29 14:39:17 UTC
@stiglitzian Thank you! Someone still doesn't understand it (or just pretend). EU is killing Southern countries to save € imbalances.

JL @999joseluis 2015-06-29 14:44:05 UTC
@stiglitzian in what country restructuring have creditors being 'nice'? What lender treats u to tea and biscuits if u own 300 or more?

Urvashi Phagoo @Lil_Miss_UP 2015-06-29 14:49:22 UTC
@stiglitzian Austerity is(was) the only deal-breaker. Keynes would've been genuinely contrite today. #GreeceCrisis

Victor Pena @victormpena29 2015-06-29 14:50:55 UTC
@stiglitzian @euri_cabral

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-06-29 15:14:15 UTC
@stiglitzian So why do Greeks often retire at 50 on big pensions? was that a condition of the bail out?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-29 15:19:10 UTC
@stiglitzian Joseph this is part of a continuos war, the economicspart, so is the confrontation between argentina and the volture fund

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-29 15:21:01 UTC
@toffee6666 @stiglitzian why aren't we doi g the same . They need to loose their rights beacause we dont have them?

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-06-29 15:32:49 UTC
@Julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian The point is that handing out ghastly expensive pensions to everyone at age 50 is WHY they're here.

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-29 15:37:42 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian that is not correct that lacks of an analysis IMF recepies never gets to a solution

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-29 15:38:10 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian they play for the big nations interest they are not impartial technicians

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-29 15:39:18 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian greece doesn't need the eu to be a prosper country ue needs greece to be in it to control it....

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-06-29 16:22:19 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian The EU needs Greece like a hole in the head! Inefficient, outdated economy, bribes, corruption....

Giusy Donzella @DonzellaGiusy 2015-06-29 16:52:38 UTC
@stiglitzian why not to say that euro is flawed?

OpinionaDUH @OpinionaDUH 2015-06-29 19:01:00 UTC
@stiglitzian your anti-German rhetoric is bordering racist already. Dont clean the hands of corrupt Greek politicians and oligarchs!

Dominika @drolbiecka 2015-06-29 20:14:22 UTC
@stiglitzian 2main problems of this country are corruption and inequality.without really deep reforms with/no Euro on the edge of collapse

Stelios Koukos @SteliosKoukos 2015-06-29 20:52:25 UTC
@OpinionaDUH @stiglitzian get ur facts straight SIEMENS HAS PAID MILLIONS 2 RIGHT WING GREEK POLITICIANS AND UR COUNTRY DENIED TO EXTRADITE

ThomasSchuback @ThomasSchuback 2015-06-29 20:53:26 UTC
@stiglitzian But why the does Greece ask for more support from troika?

ThomasSchuback @ThomasSchuback 2015-06-29 20:54:13 UTC
@toffee6666 @stiglitzian Why do rich people do not pay taxes in Greece?

Lucas Alonso Alonso @globalonsolucas 2015-06-29 22:54:25 UTC
@stiglitzian @CristinaNarbona May be the real danger is not #GreeceCrisis but people who are in charge of making Eurozone's decisions

Μουνάς γελάκι;; @billhicks6 2015-06-30 00:24:02 UTC
@sergiez @stiglitzian aber die sind deutsch Und wir sind Griechen Aber zuerst wir beidem sind Volks und wir wollen leben.

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-30 03:19:23 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian u r soooo wrong but i think its just ignorance and not bad intention from u

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-30 10:33:42 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian just the same....

Sachi @bot_sachi 2015-06-30 12:16:24 UTC
@stiglitzian #BradyBonds '89?? MX, Argentina+Brazil? Write-offs+Not austerity allowed Bond prices 2recover. Simpson-Bowles type of stuff??

Sachi @bot_sachi 2015-06-30 12:22:58 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian The "BAD Bank FUND" 3+ yrs ago #Spain ?? Forgot?? + "Voila" NO longer on the books.

Sachi @bot_sachi 2015-06-30 12:26:40 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian '11-'12 "BAD Bank FUND"4 #Spain+ @ SAME time IMF+EU disagreement W/ #Greece (old game)!

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-06-30 16:13:59 UTC
@Julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian. Perhaps you could discuss things without the name calling.

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-06-30 18:52:26 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian there ir no name calling, its a point of view....

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-06-30 22:12:14 UTC
@Julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian I know IMF and ECB are complicit. But at the core are generous unfunded pensions handed out beyond means

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-06-30 22:14:18 UTC
@Julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian And calling people's viewpoint "ignorant" certainly isn't a compliment.

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-06-30 23:44:06 UTC
@Julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian. Did Greece need the EU in 2010 when its financial collapse was spared by loan from IMF and ECB?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-01 16:23:05 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian did they needed the eu for the 2000 and more years before 2010?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 14:21:25 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian u r slightly touching a sensible issue, will those pensioners get a job if they loose their RIGHT?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 14:23:11 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian Will those pensioners just loose a right and go straight to the unemployment rate?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 14:25:32 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian When at independent economy, able to rule their politics freely, did they had this kind of crisis?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 14:30:37 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian After all... this is not about money , this is a Geopolitic issue, Greece is just in the middle

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 15:06:20 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Julio, who did you call ignorant and why? What do you mean by geopolitical problem?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 15:53:18 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I tried refer to the knowledge we have about Greece and your tweet is full of pre judgment

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 15:56:39 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian is ur country free of those characteristics u call on Greece?did u call them lazy? Corrupts? and else

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 15:58:01 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian about geopolitics we should talk from Yalta to the date and thats not possible here....

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 16:23:41 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I didn't say lazy. I said corrupt yes, inefficient yes and unwilling to change. Similar to Argentina

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 16:25:25 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Uk is less corrupt than Greece, imo. More efficient, look at the stats and meets its debt liabilities

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 16:27:14 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I don't pre-judge, look at the facts. Yalta, well, start to explain and don't just suggest.Unhelpful

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 16:27:58 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Where would you like to discuss Yalta then Julio?

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 16:34:16 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian UK handles their economic politics thats what Greece needs now nd what Argentina recovered after 2001

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 16:41:02 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Argentina is in a big mess now!!! Overspending and borrowing too much.Ring any bells?!

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 17:03:41 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian u r so wrong... Argentina is ok in fact is receiving people from spain to work there...

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 17:04:52 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I don't know were you get your information but it's clearly wrong maybe under an interest

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 17:07:28 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian The sistem overlend money to Argentina in order to control it but now that didn't follow IMF Arg is..

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-02 17:08:57 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian less indebt country in latin America you should study the case outside what cnn tells

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 20:15:06 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I live in Tucuman so know exactly what is happening in Argentina.Is your head in the sand?

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 20:16:14 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian You need to check your facts before spouting and don't accuse me of CNN bias, I can think for myself

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 20:17:01 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Will you be answering the Yalta question or was that a "false flag"?

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 20:18:15 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Maybe in Mendoza but definitely not in Tucuman, Salta, Jujuy, parts of Patagonia and the north east

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-02 20:19:55 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian If you or I borrow, we are expected to pay it back. Argentina NEVER pays debt, hence locked out now.

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-07-03 03:47:11 UTC
@julimace9 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian I have sympathy, but they may get less or may have to get a part time job. More hands out than money.

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-07-03 03:49:54 UTC
@toffee6666 @julimace9 @stiglitzian I was referring to the "ignorant" comment made by Mr. Stiglitz

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:33:32 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian l got locked and my funds were confiscated by the IMF friends, and I saw how industry got destroyed

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:35:13 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I'm glad to be out of the International banking fraud... I remember they asking to pay debt with land

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:36:19 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian their interest goes further than money bis not that simple this is a capitalism flaw

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:37:48 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian is Argentina doibg better than when close to US and the IMF? Yes.... that you can't deny

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:42:31 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian credit went to an overlend country under the condition of disabling a weapon factory thats corruption

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:44:58 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian credits that where known to be unpayables were a practice at the time to have .....

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:45:55 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian ....control on sovereign policies and decisions, the only reason for those credits was geopolitics

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:47:29 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian remember the debt that was given in order to buy weapons when dictatorships where killing civilians

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 12:50:59 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian I'm glad to have this opportunity to exchange points of view,hope others to read and take conclusions

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-03 15:09:32 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian I think you have a determined position , Mr Stiglitz is no ignorant he has a different point of view

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-07-03 17:49:12 UTC
@toffee6666 @julimace9 @stiglitzian It It feels like Mr stiglitzian has rationalized that defaulting on money rightfully owed is morally ok.

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-04 00:07:46 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Deep sigh...!!!!!1 Exasperation!!! I have no idea what you are saying.

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-04 00:08:28 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Why would anyone want to CONTROL Argentina? There's nothing here!

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-04 00:09:14 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian No idea what this point refers to.

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-04 00:11:21 UTC
@Julimace9 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Capitalism is based on credit.It survives because new ways of credit are "invented". Bomb ticking!!

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 01:55:18 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian Food, minerals, water, oil... all thr thing for what countries gets invaded...

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 01:58:02 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian i lived thru the 90s, my wage got reduced, my school privatized, my money confiscated, imf recepies

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 02:01:09 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian credit and honest lending is ok but this history is not ....

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 02:01:37 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian ....alligned with liberal principles , its full of geopolitical manipulation.

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 02:05:53 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian morally... the debt lendig process was morally ok? You guys lack of info, I'll try to send you info.

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 02:13:38 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian please see any of this movies, Argentina Latente and Memoria del saqueo.- Thank you.-

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 02:30:20 UTC
@toffee6666 @andy_fields1 @stiglitzian creditors are not just that they have deeper interests and their intervention pushed arg of the cliff

Andy Fields @andy_fields1 2015-07-04 15:30:50 UTC
@toffee6666 @Julimace9 @stiglitzian Then let me be more clear. When money is borrowed, the expectation is that it will be repaid.

Kevin Armstrong @toffee6666 2015-07-04 16:16:51 UTC
@andy_fields1 @Julimace9 @stiglitzian It's Julio I cannot understand Andy!Also, I'm not too clever with Twitter as you can tell!

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 19:29:09 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian unless you gave credits you knew to be unpayable in order to get support on other subjects like war

Julio M Acevedo @Julimace9 2015-07-04 19:31:39 UTC
@andy_fields1 @toffee6666 @stiglitzian these are not personal level credits, they are also used to get support / alligne to certain politics

http://time.com/3939621/stiglitz-greece/
Joseph Stiglitz to Greece's Creditors: Abandon Austerity Or Face Global Fallout
Simon Shuster / Athens @shustry
June 29, 2015

Nobel laureate tells TIME that the institutions and countries that have enforced cost-cutting on Greece "have criminal responsibility"

A few years ago, when Greece was still at the start of its slide into an economic depression, the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz remembers discussing the crisis with Greek officials. What they wanted was a stimulus package to boost growth and create jobs, and Stiglitz, who had just produced an influential report for the United Nations on how to deal with the global financial crisis, agreed that this would be the best way forward. Instead, Greece's foreign creditors imposed a strict program of austerity. The Greek economy has shrunk by about 25% since 2010. The cost-cutting was an enormous mistake, Stiglitz says, and it's time for the creditors to admit it.

"They have criminal responsibility," he says of the so-called troika of financial institutions that bailed out the Greek economy in 2010, namely the International Monetary Fund, the European Commission and the European Central Bank. "It's a kind of criminal responsibility for causing a major recession," Stiglitz tells TIME in a phone interview.

Along with a growing number of the world's most influential economists, Stiglitz has begun to urge the troika to forgive Greece's debt – estimated to be worth close to $300 billion in bailouts – and to offer the stimulus money that two successive Greek governments have been requesting.

Failure to do so, Stiglitz argues, would not only worsen the recession in Greece – already deeper and more prolonged than the Great Depression in the U.S. – it would also wreck the credibility of Europe's common currency, the euro, and put the global economy at risk of contagion.

So far Greece's creditors have downplayed those risks. In recent years they have repeatedly insisted that European banks and global markets do not face any serious fallout from Greece abandoning the euro, as they have had plenty of time to insulate themselves from such an outcome. But Stiglitz, who served as the chief economist of the World Bank from 1997 to 2000, says no such firewall of protection can exist in a globalized economy, where the connections between events and institutions are often impossible to predict. "We don't know all the linkings," he says.

Many countries in Eastern Europe, for instance, are still heavily reliant on Greek banks, and if those banks collapse the European Union faces the risk of a chain reaction of financial turmoil that could easily spread to the rest of the global economy. "There is a lack of transparency in financial markets that makes it impossible to know exactly what the consequences are," says Stiglitz. "Anybody who says they do obviously doesn't know what they're talking about."

Over the weekend the prospect of Greece abandoning the euro drew closer than ever, as talks between the Greek government and its creditors broke down. Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who was elected in January on a promise to end austerity, announced on Saturday that he could not accept the troika's "insulting" demands for more tax hikes and pension cuts, and he called a referendum for July 5 to let voters decide how the government should handle the negotiations going forward. If a majority of Greeks vote to reject the troika's terms for continued assistance, Greece could be forced to default on its debt and pull out of the currency union.

Stiglitz sees two possible outcomes to that scenario – neither of them pleasant for the European Union. If the Greek economy recovers after abandoning the euro, it would "certainly increase the impetus for anti-euro politics," encouraging other struggling economies to drop the common currency and go it alone. If the Greek economy collapses without the euro, "you have on the edge of Europe a failed state," Stiglitz says. "That's when the geopolitics become very ugly."

By providing financial aid, Russia and China would then be able to undermine Greece's allegiance to the E.U. and its foreign policy decisions, creating what Stiglitz calls "an enemy within." There is no way to predict the long-term consequences of such a break in the E.U.'s political cohesion, but it would likely be more costly than offering Greece a break on its loans, he says.

"The creditors should admit that the policies that they put forward over the last five years are flawed," says Stiglitz, a professor at Columbia University. "What they asked for caused a deep depression with long-standing effects, and I don't think there is any way that Europe's and Germany's hands are clean. My own view is that they ought to recognize their complicity and say, 'Look, the past is the past. We made mistakes. How do we go on from here?'"

The most reasonable solution Stiglitz sees is a write-off of Greece's debt, or at least a deal that would not require any payments for the next ten or 15 years. In that time, Greece should be given additional aid to jumpstart its economy and return to growth. But the first step would be for the troika to make a painful yet obvious admission: "Austerity hasn't worked," Stiglitz says.


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